[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 2 - 09:42:38 ]
Hello, I am here.
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 3 - 09:43:05 ]
I'm Dr. Jani Macari Pallis and I'll be moderating the chat today. Just wondering if Drs. Paul Lubbers and Duane Knudson are online yet?
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 4 - 09:43:23 ]
Great - Hello Duane.
[ Dr. Paul Lubbers - 5 - 09:43:40 ]
Hello, I am online.
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 6 - 09:45:14 ]
Hello Paul - the other experts are juuuussssstttt getting out of a session where the debate is "Is the speed of the game too fast?". Interestingly the representatives from the WTA and ATP say "NO".
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 7 - 09:46:30 ]
To start the chat off I'd like to ask Duane if he can tell us a little about the recent testing he is doing on the larger ball. What are the goals and purpose of the tests?
[ Dr. Paul Lubbers - 8 - 09:46:33 ]
Personally, I tend to agree with them..
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 9 - 09:47:54 ]
I'd like to ask Dr. Paul Lubbers, what new sport science information is being integrated into high performance coaching?
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 10 - 09:49:35 ]
RE: [Dr. Paul Lubbers] Personally, I tend to agree with them..
It's been interesting - the discussion dealt with - yes, we want to have more people play tennis - but the larger ball may not be the solution.
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 11 - 09:49:40 ]
We recently tested 12 players with the regular and the 6% larger tennis ball. The players were from intermediate to highly skilled and from the age of 23 to 66. The data are not analyzed, but we are looking at the muscle activation, racket acceleration, and player position on the court when using the two balls.
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 12 - 09:50:23 ]
I'd also like to invite others in the chat room to ask questions. Kevin, are you there?
[ Dr. Paul Lubbers - 13 - 09:50:51 ]
The High Performance Coaching Program is utilizing information from the area of Sport Science in Six areas, Specific Coaching Skills, Technique and biomechanics, Strategy and Tactics, The Health Sciences, Psychological Skills and planning. In each area we are using the latest information from experts in each field.
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 14 - 09:52:07 ]
RE: [Dr. Duane Knudson] We recently tested 12 players with the regular and the 6% larger tennis ball. The players were from intermediate to highly skilled and from the age of 23 to 66. The data are not analyzed, but we are looking at the muscle activation, racket acceleration, and player position on the court when using the two balls.
Are you looking at how players will play differently with the ball? Or are you looking at will there be more injuries - just trying to get a feel for the "big picture".
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 15 - 09:52:36 ]
Our project on the larger ball also included surveys of the player's perceptions. These data were sent directly to the USTA, but it is clear to players of all ability levels that the ball slows down and "stays in the court" more. The opinion of the players varies but many like the higher speed they can hit the regular ball.
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 16 - 09:55:12 ]
RE: [Dr. Jani Macari Pallis] Are you looking at how players will play differently with the ball? Or are you looking at will there be more injuries - just trying to get a feel for the "big picture".
Our project is primarily about the potential risk to players. We wanted data on typical tennis players as they play with the new balls. This kind of data is not usually publishable in scientific journals, but does tell the USTA if players may be at risk of injury because of an altered style of play.
[ unknown - 17 - 09:56:14 ]
Paul - are there new coaching education materials available through the USTA?
[ Kevin - 18 - 09:56:46 ]
I've heard that today's game is more of a power game than a finesse game. Is the goal of the USTA to move towards more of a finesse game with the slower/larger ball?
[ Prof. Howard Brody - 19 - 09:57:04 ]
Howard Brody is here now.
[ Dr. Paul Lubbers - 20 - 09:57:18 ]
Do you think that the risk of injury might change as the level of play progresses from beginning player to professional level?
[ Dr. Andy Lutz - 21 - 09:58:09 ]
Has anyone considered a lighter ball of the standard size as an alternative to the larger ball? It will also give the same increase in drag per initial momentum, but will look the same to a player.
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 22 - 09:58:31 ]
RE: [Kevin] I've heard that today's game is more of a power game than a finesse game. Is the goal of the USTA to move towards more of a finesse game with the slower/larger ball?
I don't "officially" speak for the USTA, but I believe the USTA and ITF are interested in making the game easier and more enjoyable for the average player and spectator. The game is much faster than in the days of small, wooden rackets.
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 23 - 09:58:58 ]
Howard - what was the summary of the discussion just now?
[ Prof. Howard Brody - 24 - 09:59:51 ]
There is no agreement as to whether the game (tennis) is too fast.
[ Buddy - 25 - 10:00:39 ]
Has there been any consideration on limiting the racket technology to the "small wooden rackets," like they do in professional baseball?
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 26 - 10:01:39 ]
Rabi, what was the reaction to your results? Can you explain the drag on the tennis ball?
[ Kevin - 27 - 10:01:58 ]
Do you think slowing down the game will give the smaller players, like a Chang or Rios, a better chance of winning, or do you think the game will still be dominated by the larger, more powerful players?
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 28 - 10:02:02 ]
RE: [Prof. Howard Brody] There is no agreement as to whether the game (tennis) is too fast.
I think Howard is right. Some people love the new speed of play and hitting winners from all over the court. Others, like the patterns of play that set up an opportunity to win a point. It is all a matter of personal preference.
[ Dr. Paul Lubbers - 29 - 10:02:48 ]
At the present time our High Performance Coaching Newsletter is available on a Quarterly basis. In it we include a feature article, stroke analysis in the form of sequence pictures, a specific Sports Science article and a page or two devoted to strategy and tactics. In addition we are working on a video series that integrates tactics and technique and proper ways to correct flaws with a stroke. Note - you can obtain the quarterly newsletter by writing a request to:
USTA
Attn: US Tennis Coaching Education Dept.
7310 Crandon Boulevard
Key Biscayne, FL 33149-1103
[Dr. Rabi Mehta - 30 - 10:03:05 ]
I presented the new drag results at the ITF conference today. Basically, we have skin friction drag, pressure drag - and we believe a new component we call fuzz drag.
[ Prof. Howard Brody - 31 - 10:03:35 ]
RE: [Dr. Andy Lutz] Has anyone considered a lighter ball of the standard size as an alternative to the larger ball? It will also give the same increase in drag per initial momentum, but will look the same to a player.
If you decrease the ball mass by a small amount (10% perhaps) there is NO net increase or decrease in the time for a 120 mph serve to get to the baseline because the ball will come off of the racket with greater speed but slow down more in the air. The two effects almost exactly cancel to first order. If you reduce the ball weight by half, it will slow the game down, but it will change the basic nature of the game - which we don't want to do.
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 32 - 10:04:22 ]
Steve Haake, tell me what are the different projects you are working on for the ITF?
[ Bain/SpaatGreatGorge - 33 - 10:04:41 ]
Why is there a general belief that slowing the game down will make it "more enjoyable" for the average player? Why is "easier" better?
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 34 - 10:04:59 ]
RE: [Kevin] Do you think slowing down the game will give the smaller players, like a Chang or Rios, a better chance of winning, or do you think the game will still be dominated by the larger, more powerful players.
I believe we are already seeing an advantage of taller and larger players at fast court tournaments. This is why any changes in ball or racket rules are so important.
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 35 - 10:05:39 ]
Alison Cooke, what is aeromechanics for a tennis ball mean?
[ Dr. Steve Haake - 36 - 10:06:31 ]
RE: [Dr. Jani Macari Pallis] Steve, tell me what are the different projects you are working on for the ITF.
My name is Steve Haake; I am the Technical Consultant to the ITF. We have lots of projects around the world working in Sydney, London, Sheffield (UK), Japan etc. looking at aerodynamics, impacts with the surface and racket power.
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 37 - 10:08:08 ]
RE: [Bain/SpaatGreatGorge] Why is there a general belief that slowing the game down will make it "more enjoyable" for the average player? Why is "easier" better?
Easier is most likely better in getting people to play tennis. When small head wooden rackets were common, tennis was a difficult sport to play. With the large head, composite rackets most anyone with decent eye-hand coordination can hit a tennis ball 80 feet. If "easier is better" is, however, a matter of opinion. There are many factors to consider when changing the rules of a complex sport like tennis.
[ Kevin - 38 - 10:08:50 ]
Fuzz drag ... so is there going to be research done to create a fuzz drag chart?
[ Dr. Steve Haake - 39 - 10:10:54 ]
There is a belief in some circles that the game is too fast, particularly in the men's game. It is possible that the men are reaching a limit where aces are going to become prevalent. Therefore the game might need to be slowed down for these players.
[Dr. Alison Cooke - 40 - 10:11:22 ]
Many phenomena inter-relate when looking at tennis ball design, particularly when the ball is in an unsteady situation (e.g. on leaving racket). For example, on leaving the racket we can see with high speed camera equipment that the tennis ball does not retain its shape. It deforms. It can be described as "ringing", that is the shape of the ball varies. This varying shape, which can be described with mechanical parameters, will have an effect on the aerodynamics. We could call this an aeromechanical effect...smashing!
[Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 41 - 10:12:25 ]
Bill Aronson is here now. Bill what are you learning at the conference?
[ Bain/SpaatGreatGorge - 42 - 10:13:58 ]
Are we changing the game (the new ball and other suggested modifications) to make it more enjoyable for the "average player" or to make the pro game more entertaining? Are they possibly the same thing?
[Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 43 - 10:14:17 ]
Po-Jen Cheng is here from Wilson Sporting Goods. Po-Jen what do you think you will learn at this conference?
[ JohnfromDublin - 44 - 10:14:19 ]
Our Club is using the "First point after 40/40" Winner system for Club games. Is it used widely and what is the general experience? Should it be introduced for competition?
[ Dr. Paul Lubbers - 45 - 10:14:35 ]
RE: [Dr. Steve Haake] There is a belief in some circles that the game is too fast, particularly in the men's game. It is possible that the men are reaching a limit where aces are going to become prevalent. Therefore the game might need to be slowed down for these players.
Hello Steve, This is Dr. Paul Lubbers, USA Tennis Coaching Education. Do you think it is possible that in time the players will "adjust and evolve" their technique to deal with the speed and power?
[ JohnfromDublin - 46 - 10:15:30 ]
Our Club is using the "First point after 40/40" Winner system for Club games. Is it used widely and what is the general experience? Should it be introduced for competition?
[[Po-Jen Cheng - 47 - 10:15:56 ]
This is Po-Jen I am here to learn from different research experts on the results of their work.
[ Dr. Bill Aronson - 48 - 10:16:05 ]
RE: [unknown] Bill Aronson is here now. Bill what are you learning at the conference?
I am finding out that many NGBs (National Governing Board) are very interested in becoming more involved. There is a real sincere interest on behalf of the ATP, WTA, ITF, and USTA IN WORKING TOGETHER ON VARIOUS PROJECTS. I am interested in having the USTA work more closely with a variety of issues; BALL STUDY, rules etc.
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 49 - 10:16:42 ]
RE: [Bain/SpaatGreatGorge] Are we changing the game (the new ball and other suggested modifications) to make it more enjoyable for the "average player" or to make the pro game more entertaining? Are they possibly the same thing?
Any changes in the rules that are implemented at both levels will clearly affect both levels of play. The research I am doing is for the Adult Tennis and Technical Committee of the USTA, so I was charged with finding out how the new ball affects the majority of the tennis players. It is unclear if the tennis professionals will go along with using the larger ball. They make a living with their skills and will be resistant to "experimenting" with their career.
[ Bain/SpaatGreatGorge - 50 - 10:18:55 ]
Dr. Brody - at one conference I believe you said there was no such think as a "dominant" eye, yet I find the concept very useful as a teaching tool (getting people to watch the ball on the non-dominant side by turning their heads). Is the non-existence of eye dominance still the prevailing scientific opinion?
[ Dr. Andy Lutz - 51 - 10:19:58 ]
Regarding ball size/mass: I heard a commentator during the Wimbledon coverage say that they started using a slightly heavier ball a couple years ago. Is this true? If so, isn't it the wrong direction if the goal is to reduce the number of aces and prolong rallies?
[Dr. Bill Aronson - 52 - 10:20:18 ]
RE: [JohnfromDublin] Our Club is using the "First point after 40/40" Winner system for Club games. Is it used widely and what is the general experience? Should it be introduced for competition?
IT IS another method of scoring used primarily in collegiate tennis. IT ALLOWS for a faster method of playing tennis. Enjoy and try it out.
[ Prof. Howard Brody - 53 - 10:20:30 ]
RE: [Bain/SpaatGreatGorge] Are we changing the game (the new ball and other suggested modifications) to make it more enjoyable for the "average player" or to make the pro game more entertaining? Are they possibly the same thing?
The original purpose of enlarging the ball is to try to see if that is a viable solution to the problem of the men's game seeming to be getting too fast on grass courts. However, the larger ball ALSO makes the game more fun for the beginner and the average recreational player - by slowing down the game, making it easier to learn, increasing the rally time. We think with the bigger ball players will spend more time hitting balls and less time picking up balls.
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 54 - 10:22:27 ]
RE: [Dr. Paul Lubbers] Hello Steve, This is Dr. Paul Lubbers, USA Tennis Coaching Education. Do you think it is possible that in time the players will "adjust and evolve" their technique to deal with the speed and power?
Paul, based on my experience collecting data on the larger ball last week, I think most tennis players quickly make adjustments to the speed of the ball (similar to switching to a clay or other speed court). When we switched balls the subjects were allowed to rally the ball a bit, and by the end of the first game it "appeared to us" that the players (from NTRP 3.5 to 6) had found their range and were not making major errors in shot depth.
[ Prof. Howard Brody - 55 - 10:23:15 ]
RE: [Dr. Andy Lutz] Regarding ball size/mass: I heard a commentator during the Wimbledon coverage say that they started using a slightly heavier ball a couple years ago. Is this true? If so, isn't it the wrong direction if the goal is to reduce the number of aces and prolong rallies?
I am not aware that they tried a heavier ball at Wimbledon - and I doubt that they did. They might have tried a slightly deader ball (took some of the air out of it), but that would not have worked in slowing the game down.
[ Kevin - 56 - 10:24:26 ]
It seems that in most other sports the players must adjust to rule changes made by the governing organization. However it seems here with regards to using a larger ball that the USTA or ITF must consult the professional players. Do the tennis professionals have a large say in how the game is governed?
[Po-Jen Cheng - 57 - 10:25:24 ]
RE: [Buddy] Has there been any consideration on limiting the racket technology to the "small wooden rackets," like they do in professional baseball?
The introduction of wood rackets has been considered. (but, not by us.) If it was, it would greatly hurt the recreational level.
[Prof. Howard Brody - 58 - 10:28:46 ]
RE: [Kevin] It seems that in most other sports the players must adjust to rule changes made by the governing organization. However it seems here with regards to using a larger ball that the USTA or ITF must consult the professional players. Do the tennis professionals have a large say in how the game is governed.
The changes in the rules of tennis are a process which is done by consultation with all the people involved - the manufacturers, the professional players, the teaching pros, the national organizations (like the USTA and the LTA). If general agreement can be reached, the rule may be changed. The present large ball rule is a 2 year experiment.
[ Michael - 59 - 10:30:14 ]
Thanks, Duane, for letting me join the chat. The San Francisco Tennis Club is very interested in your conversation.
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 60 - 10:31:24 ]
RE: [Dr. Andy Lutz] regarding ball size/mass: I heard a commentator during the Wimbledon coverage say that they started using a slightly heavier ball a couple years ago. Is this true? If so, isn't it the wrong direction if the goal is to reduce the number of aces and prolong rallies?
One thing to pay attention to when discussing the perceptions of professional players is the jargon/lingo of tennis. Players talk about the "feel" of the impact and the "weight" of an opponent's shot. A very fast shot with a lot of spin tends to correspond to a feeling that the shot was "heavy."
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 61 - 10:33:05 ]
Rabi, Kevin had a question on fuzz drag ....
[Dr. Rabi Mehta - 62 - 10:35:18 ]
The fuzz drag would be VERY difficult to calculate because the wake from one filament interacts with the neighbor...Also the correct Reynolds number is hard to assess...
[Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 63 - 10:37:31 ]
Paul - Bill Aronson says he misses you and that he's running everyday ... (He also told me he ate a whole pizza at about 1AM this morning).
[ Dr. Paul Lubbers - 64 - 10:39:38 ]
RE: [Dr. Jani Macari Pallis] Paul - Bill Aronson says he misses you and that he's running everyday ... (He also told me he ate a whole pizza at about 1AM this morning).
Dr. Aronson is indeed a walking testament to the applied benefits of sports science as it relates to training and nutrition.
[ Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 65 - 10:39:45 ]
Bill, what projects are the sport science group conducting?
[ Buddy - 66 - 10:39:53 ]
Maybe after all is said and done, someone could convince the PGA to consider making the holes bigger. It sure would make things a whole lot more enjoyable for the recreational golfers out there.
[ FML - 67 - 10:40:17 ]
This is for Rabi. How significant is the fuzz drag to the overall drag on the tennis ball?
[ Kevin - 68 - 10:40:30 ]
Hmm ... this is a fluid dynamics question for Rabi. With regards to the tennis ball fuzz; do you think that you might need to formulate a new "non-dimensional number" like a Reynolds number, which takes into account fuzz height and/or density?
[ Dr. Duane Knudson - 69 - 10:41:14 ]
RE: [Dr. Rabi Mehta] The fuzz drag would be VERY difficult to calculate because the wake from one filament interacts with the neighbor...Also the correct Reynolds number is hard to assess...
Rabi, can you give a typical player a feel for how much differences in felt wear affect the speed of the ball? I think most players notice this, but could not put a percentage to the advantage/disadvantage.
[ Dr. Bill Aronson - 70 - 10:43:33 ]
SPORT SCIENCE IS CURRENTLY REVIEWING grants for 2000. Certainly the ball study is getting consideration. OTHER TOPICS ARE GETTING REVIEWED by the committee in the next few weeks. DECISIONS will be made BY August 15. THE USTA IS INTERESTED IN SPORT SCIENCE RESEARCH PERTAINING TO wheelchair tennis.
[ Dr. Andy Lutz - 71 - 10:44:21 ]
RE affect of felt wear. You notice the pros carefully choosing the ball they serve with. Even reasonably skilled players know the ball with good, un-ruffled fuzz should be served on the 1st serve, saving the fuzzier ball for the second spin serve.
[Dr. Rabi Mehta - 72 - 10:45:11 ]
RE: [FML] This is for Rabi, How significant is the fuzz drag to the overall drag on the tennis ball
Hi FML -- this must be you Dave!!!! In my humble opinion, it accounts for about 20% of the overall measured drag --- I believe the pressure drag maxes out at 0.5 (all in terms of drag coefficient)
[Dr. Jani Macari Pallis - 73 - 10:45:45 ]
Well, we are out of time. I want to thank Howard, Bill, Rabi, Paul, Duane, Alison, Steve, Andy, Po-Jen and everyone else for being here today. I'd like to thank Oran Cox and everyone from NASA's Learning Technology Project and NASA's Quest Project for hosting the chat. I'd like to thank Nicola Belenger from the International Tennis Federation who helped us conduct this web chat from London.